CaptainWacky
I want to smell dark matter
THAT'S A FACT!
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There are no new thoughts or opinions, just memes
- Thread starter CaptainWacky
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curiousa2z
Be patient till the last.
energy cannot be created or destroyed.
CaptainWacky
I want to smell dark matter
Just changed, yes, but sadly that doesn't prove life after death.
curiousa2z
Be patient till the last.
What defines death, though?
What about all those people who get "brought back to life"/resucitated/ after being "declared clinically dead" and describe a " white light/ a tunnel/Granny Gordon waiting for them/ feeling 'serenity'," etc. ?
That can't simply be symptomatic of a dying brain; it's too universal a phenomenon
(sp)
among wildly divergent belief systems.
Even athiests have described that.
What about all those people who get "brought back to life"/resucitated/ after being "declared clinically dead" and describe a " white light/ a tunnel/Granny Gordon waiting for them/ feeling 'serenity'," etc. ?
That can't simply be symptomatic of a dying brain; it's too universal a phenomenon
(sp)
among wildly divergent belief systems.
Even athiests have described that.
Ishcabittle
Well-known member
i'm agreeing with curious on this one. :shock:
CaptainWacky
I want to smell dark matter
No one comes back from irreversable brain death.
CaptainWacky
I want to smell dark matter
curiousa2z said:
Yes it can.
CaptainWacky
I want to smell dark matter
curiousa2z said:
If they're brought back to life that means they were not clinically brain-dead. Scientifically, only once cessation of electrical-activity in the neo-cortex has occured is one clinically dead. And even then, the EEG needs to be monitored since electrical-activity has been known to re-fire in rare cicumstances. So, if they're brought back then they did not suffer brain death. We already know that the brain has safe-guards to protect it from massive shock. The brain is flooded with Dimethyltryptamine when you're born and when you die to deal with the shock of both situations. DMT has powerful halluciogenic properties that is naturally created by the brain so "near-death experiences" being soemthing divine are a bit of a stretch.
Eggs Mayonnaise
All In With The Nuts
Jeezus, it's like everyone on the Internet knows everything about everything but me.
Anyway, I stopped reading after "memes"...
Anyway, I stopped reading after "memes"...
Eggs Mayonnaise
All In With The Nuts
CaptainWacky
I want to smell dark matter
It's best not to know, sometimes.
CaptainWacky
I want to smell dark matter
You have no sense of smell when you die, if that's what you mean.
curiousa2z
Be patient till the last.
Menty, I know, I've read the bio chemistry too. And I'd be the last one to refute emperical findings.
And you'll note I didn't use any religious terms nor state that the experience was anything
Cos even non-believing athiests have had the same experience.
And why would they? They've got no expectations of an "hereafter". They don't need a happy hallucination to cope with death. They expect death to be nothingness.
And that's what makes me wonder, really wonder....
but, of course, I can't prove anything.
Obviously we won't know for sure til we croak, kick the bucket, buy the farm, push up those daisies - then SOMEONE will be thinking, ha! Told you!
"E's not dead, 'e's restin'!"
And you'll note I didn't use any religious terms nor state that the experience was anything
.
Cos even non-believing athiests have had the same experience.
And why would they? They've got no expectations of an "hereafter". They don't need a happy hallucination to cope with death. They expect death to be nothingness.
And that's what makes me wonder, really wonder....
but, of course, I can't prove anything.
Obviously we won't know for sure til we croak, kick the bucket, buy the farm, push up those daisies - then SOMEONE will be thinking, ha! Told you!
"E's not dead, 'e's restin'!"
As far as atheists experiencing NDE's I don't think it's what they expect to happen rather than the universal trait they share with everyone else. Nameley a life behind them.
The extreme stress of the body shutting down and the brain turning off needs to be managed in a biological sense. Evolution has made us fear death on an instinctual level. Seeing loved ones and especially inconspicuous lights isn't anything beyond what could be expected outside of biological functioning.
Atheists also can't accept death anymore than anyone else. I firmly believe that nobody alive has ever been able to properly accept death since it goes against every biological functioning we have. Reasons and belief are flooded by instinct at that point.
Could it be something else? Of course. I certainly don't mean to scoff at your belief in the possibility.
Though when I look at these things (and I do have a fervent interest in them) I find them so hard to support. The model for conciousness for instance. If we are to explore the possibility of an afterlife being seen in an NDE then we have to also look at the potential for our conciousness to exist independant of the brain. This becomes really hard to support at this point and you're left with Occams Razor. Mainly the most likley explanation fitting best. We also have to look at any reasons why we would have an afterlife. If you remove all our own percieved cosmic signifigance then that is hard to support as well. But I will admit that when you get into the perceptions and complexity of our conciousness you are left with a lifetime of metaphysical philosophy to explore and understand.
So, Is there an afterlife?
I personally find it very difficult to support on any level. I want there to be an afterlife very much. I don't relish the thought of just stopping and existing no more. But it does seem to be the most likley explanation for what happens to us if we take all our understanding and put it together.
I will accept the most God-allmighty "I told you so" if we happen to meet in an afterlife of some sort though.
The extreme stress of the body shutting down and the brain turning off needs to be managed in a biological sense. Evolution has made us fear death on an instinctual level. Seeing loved ones and especially inconspicuous lights isn't anything beyond what could be expected outside of biological functioning.
Atheists also can't accept death anymore than anyone else. I firmly believe that nobody alive has ever been able to properly accept death since it goes against every biological functioning we have. Reasons and belief are flooded by instinct at that point.
Could it be something else? Of course. I certainly don't mean to scoff at your belief in the possibility.
Though when I look at these things (and I do have a fervent interest in them) I find them so hard to support. The model for conciousness for instance. If we are to explore the possibility of an afterlife being seen in an NDE then we have to also look at the potential for our conciousness to exist independant of the brain. This becomes really hard to support at this point and you're left with Occams Razor. Mainly the most likley explanation fitting best. We also have to look at any reasons why we would have an afterlife. If you remove all our own percieved cosmic signifigance then that is hard to support as well. But I will admit that when you get into the perceptions and complexity of our conciousness you are left with a lifetime of metaphysical philosophy to explore and understand.
So, Is there an afterlife?
I personally find it very difficult to support on any level. I want there to be an afterlife very much. I don't relish the thought of just stopping and existing no more. But it does seem to be the most likley explanation for what happens to us if we take all our understanding and put it together.
I will accept the most God-allmighty "I told you so" if we happen to meet in an afterlife of some sort though.
curiousa2z
Be patient till the last.
^ and if we do - you'll be buying the first round.
excellent debate, my friend. You've built a convincing argument, and I hope you're wrong.
(nice reference to Occam's Razor, btw.)
just the one small point -
By a better understanding of quantum physics.
You've assumed that we all have an instinctive defence against accepting death, a spiritual longing of some sort for the after life, but I think I actually believe that our definition of death is wonky due simply to our as- yet incomplete understanding of quantum physics.
We're going somewhere elae whether we think about it one way or the other.
We are energy. We have electromagnetic fields. There is something to us that us more than our mass - and that is what cannot be created or destroyed - and that' s what carries on - maybe into another reality/dimension - I can speculate til the cows come home on what it might be - but the point is we as of yet can't measure it , or access it.
(Although I know there are people who believe that these other realities/ consciousnesses/ dimensions/ whatever you want to call it, can be and have been accessed. But I digress.)
Just removing the "spirituality" of the notion, I still am not satisfied with our definition of death. Or consciousness.
OK. Being physically brain dead is a physical indication that our bodies aren't going to be revived. I can accept that.
But I struggle to accept scientifically the hypothesis that the body is the total sum of what we are.
My hypothesis is that there is more,- something in addition - put whatever label you want on it: consciousness/soul/ pure energy : that still exists and goes elsewhere.
In the same way man could not see the crators of the moon til he got the right instruments to so , one day we'll be able to chart the path to "wherever" it is that energy goes to. I don't think it's metaphysical; metaphorical; I really think there is [are] other places our "consciousness/soul/energy' goes to.
And when we have a better grasp of quantum physics [when we develop the tools] we'll know where.
And possibly we'll have to make up a differerent definition for "death".
excellent debate, my friend. You've built a convincing argument, and I hope you're wrong.
(nice reference to Occam's Razor, btw.)
just the one small point -
By a better understanding of quantum physics.
You've assumed that we all have an instinctive defence against accepting death, a spiritual longing of some sort for the after life, but I think I actually believe that our definition of death is wonky due simply to our as- yet incomplete understanding of quantum physics.
We're going somewhere elae whether we think about it one way or the other.
We are energy. We have electromagnetic fields. There is something to us that us more than our mass - and that is what cannot be created or destroyed - and that' s what carries on - maybe into another reality/dimension - I can speculate til the cows come home on what it might be - but the point is we as of yet can't measure it , or access it.
(Although I know there are people who believe that these other realities/ consciousnesses/ dimensions/ whatever you want to call it, can be and have been accessed. But I digress.)
Just removing the "spirituality" of the notion, I still am not satisfied with our definition of death. Or consciousness.
OK. Being physically brain dead is a physical indication that our bodies aren't going to be revived. I can accept that.
But I struggle to accept scientifically the hypothesis that the body is the total sum of what we are.
My hypothesis is that there is more,- something in addition - put whatever label you want on it: consciousness/soul/ pure energy : that still exists and goes elsewhere.
In the same way man could not see the crators of the moon til he got the right instruments to so , one day we'll be able to chart the path to "wherever" it is that energy goes to. I don't think it's metaphysical; metaphorical; I really think there is [are] other places our "consciousness/soul/energy' goes to.
And when we have a better grasp of quantum physics [when we develop the tools] we'll know where.
And possibly we'll have to make up a differerent definition for "death".
CaptainWacky
I want to smell dark matter
Where does it go when we're knocked unconscious,though? And what would be the point in an afterlife if we lose our personal identity (which I think we definitely would since our memories are stored chemically in our brains.)?
I personally don't believe in an afterlife but the thought of nothingness still terrifies me and I cannot accept it. I bet my brain would try and construct a nice comfy lie if I was ever in a near death position!
I personally don't believe in an afterlife but the thought of nothingness still terrifies me and I cannot accept it. I bet my brain would try and construct a nice comfy lie if I was ever in a near death position!