Socialism and Public Education

[Imperium]

Anyone who does not appreciate a FREE public school education in America should be destroyed IMMHO.

[Chuck.]

It isn't quite free, since our taxes pay for it. But anyone who doesn't take advantage of this opportunity is a fool.

[Soma Part II]

That is not logical and therefore your suggestion should be ignored, Mr. Imperium. :roll:!

[Falconfire]

honestly anyone can do what they want... its a free country... but Im not a fan of private education, bush aside my status as a Educator in Training, all of my friends who have come from a private ed background have strange problems adjusting to others, especially if they are going into a situation that subjects them to many more of a class not their own..

Not everyone mind you is like this, my cousins are perfectly adjusted and have no problems in that regard but strangly enough in my city it seems the case.

[Laker_Girl]

One word: VOUCHERS

Competition breeds excellence.

[Falconfire]

yes alow already rich folks money back for keeping their kids away from "evil in the schoolsystem" Vouchers are a horrable idea and promote elietism not competition... its bad enough most schools are canciling technology programs (Im a tech ed teacher if you hevent guessed) because there is no funding, but pull MORE money away makes it better...

thats what makes No Child LEft BEhind a joke, no one sees the real tactic the republican party is trying to pull, which is discredit schools by making it so even vegitables have to pass, and THEN failing a school if they dont

[Imperium]

Originally posted by Falconfire
[B]my status as a Educator in Training, all of my friends who have come from a private ed background have strange problems adjusting to others

Bullshit.

[Imperium]

Originally posted by Falconfire
Im a tech ed teacher

BAHAHAHA. "Tech Ed." Do you teach kids to hit the power button on a PC?

[Falconfire]

actually no I teach kids how to build cars, create bookcases, design a house, and yes push the power on button all things your mind has yet to grasp...

as for your bullshit comment.... i think I already answered that one in godforsaken.

"edited cause I changed my sentence mid-typing"

[Laker_Girl]

Originally posted by Falconfire
yes alow already rich folks money back for keeping their kids away from "evil in the schoolsystem" Vouchers are a horrable idea and promote elietism not competition... its bad enough most schools are canciling technology programs (Im a tech ed teacher if you hevent guessed) because there is no funding, but pull MORE money away makes it better...

thats what makes No Child LEft BEhind a joke, no one sees the real tactic the republican party is trying to pull, which is discredit schools by making it so even vegitables have to pass, and THEN failing a school if they dont

Bullshit.

Spoken like a teacher uncomfortable with being held accountable for their failing students.

I don't have any children and I have to pay taxes to support a corrupt school system churning out ill prepared and uneducated children. I don't subsribe to the crap logic that if you narrow the pool you're less likely to get quality teachers that is total and complete liberal crap, front to back, top to bottom.

VOUCHERS, competition breeds excellence.

[Fundamentalism]

Falconfire seems like ONE OF THOSE kids that needs use CAPS to bring across his POINT.

[guldulac]

Originally posted by Laker_Girl
I don't have any children and I have to pay taxes to support a corrupt school system churning out ill prepared and uneducated children. I don't subsribe to the crap logic that if you narrow the pool you're less likely to get quality teachers that is total and complete liberal crap, front to back, top to bottom.

VOUCHERS, competition breeds excellence.

I haven't been mugged, haven't had my house broken into, but I still gladly pay taxes to support a munincipal police force. It's myopic to think that only direct benefit is worthy of your tax money. Falconfire is absolutely right and beyond that, there's the problem that private institutions will only be able to absorb a small portion of public school students, most likely the cream of the crop, leaving the public schools to fail even further. No, balkanized education is not the answer.

[Laker_Girl]

^You can barely compare the two.

I don't chose if I'm going to be the victim of a crime or not but I want to be damn sure the police going to be there if I am, it's like insurance. However, I CHOOSE whether or not I'm going to have children and where I'm going to send them to school and if I CHOOSE to send my child to private school that I pay for I should get a tax break or at the very least be given a portion of my tax dollars to pay for my child's private education. To say it's my responsibility to make sure people can afford their children and their children's education is ridiculous. I like the idea of a free education but not when test scores plummit every year without fail and teachers aren't being held accountable.

[guldulac]

LG,

You fail completely to understand the nature of the world you live in. Protection from mugging is about policing and education. We'd have a far greater crime problem without public education. You benefit from that, even though you do not have kids. Think bigger, see the whole picture, don't just look at your wallet and say, "I'm being raped by the taxman." You get something back, whether you're smart enough to see it or not.

[Falconfire]

actually BloodRayne I come from the age where bolding things wasnt possible thus caps wasnt ment to be screaming as it is now... bad habit I know.

on to real info
NOT at all (first off not a teacher yet so I worry about nothing in terms of failing)

Lets just get something straight about a lot of "failing" students" It might surprise you to know a lot of them come from afluent families, not nearly as many as poor but alot... see thats what happens when corup admins are alowed to force teachers to give passing grades for those who shouldnt. Non-tenured teachers are the worse at getting this treatment, many are fired for not passing a student (i know of 3 myself)

Also how many people pay for roads and dont drive? How about court yet never step foot into one even for your expected jury duty. How about people who pay for parks and never walk in one... The list goes on, not having children is YOUR choice, just like not having them in public school is. but just like those people who pay but dont use their publicly allowed resorces, you are expected to pay... funny though I dont see people bitching about the money (in many cases MUCH more money than education is allowed) for those public utilities... I mean we pay 1 and a half times as many dollars to garbage disposal in our city than to education! And this while we own the trucks and landfill we use!

Now as for liberal crap.. honestly its neither sides crap.. while yes the liberals do hold education to be much more dear than say war... both sides treat education and teachers like shit..

Show me a REAL educator... one who has taught at least 10 years in a public education facility in a urban enviroment and not some "college lecturer" who thinks they know how to teach and hasnt step foot in a classroom on EITHER SIDE.... and I will vote for them!

Im a moderate who wanted Bradley or McCain to win 4 years ago after all, which most teachers actually are.

[Laker_Girl]

Originally posted by guldulac
LG,

You fail completely to understand the nature of the world you live in. Protection from mugging is about policing and education. We'd have a far greater crime problem without public education. You benefit from that, even though you do not have kids. Think bigger, see the whole picture, don't just look at your wallet and say, "I'm being raped by the taxman." You get something back, whether you're smart enough to see it or not.

Guldulac,

That is my point exactly, I pay taxes for a public education system that is churning out kids that have attained nothing in their 12 year spent there. They don't go on to college and they don't become contributing members of society. Christ how many thirty-somethings do you know still living with their parents or have moved back home because they couldn't hack it in college or the real world. I see the "whole picture" and the taxman is still "raping me".

Public education sucks any way you slice it and with vouchers teachers will be held to higher standards than the ones set by their mob...er...union so that schools can recieve the money they need to survive and those that don't cut it don't stick around to drain tax dollars, it's simple and brilliant.

[guldulac]

So we're making some progress, then. You aren't opposed to paying for public education, you just want it to be more effective. We can agree on that.

I disagree that vouchers improve the situation. They help a few kids but deny resources to the vast majority that remain in the public schools. If conservative reformers had something to offer beyondthe triple mantra of "vouchers, home schooling, money doesn't solve the prolembs," I'd give considerable defference to their ideas. Unfortunately, these programs only serve to undermine public education, not bolster it.

[Falconfire]

OK counter point... it is pretty well known more people go to college than ever LG (mind that I call you that?) But why? most countries dont put nearly as high a emphasis to going to college that the US does, heck not nearly as high to high school yet we try to compair ourselves to them.

The fact is the reason so many fail out is not because they couldn't "hack it" its because they where never ment for it... but while programs like what I will be doing teach these children to have skills so they CAN enter the workplace and be productive members, more and more cut funding and funding re-allocation (like NCLB) kills my programs and thus forces a mentality of have to go to college that these kids really dont need...

I could name hundreds of millionares who never step foot into college... so why is it so important?

Likewise my HS churned out two major groups... Navy men (very big navy town, if it wasnt for my physicaL problems I would have been a midshipmen instead since we have congressional allowment as a distingished unit in NJROTC) and workers for Merk and GM (two major companies with plants in the city) colllege bound like me was there too, but my schoolsytem knew better than to expect EVERYONE to go.

I could go into a huge long post about whats wrong with our system and how we could REALLY change it for the better, unlike the polititans view, but thats for another time

[Laker_Girl]

Guldulac, I'd never want to get rid of public education, ever. It's an incredible advantage when used properly and I'd never deny a child an education.

As for vouchers, I disagree completely. If the teachers and administrators unions didn't have such a stronghold on school buses vouchers would be ideal. Parents could spend their money where they feel their child would get the best education regardless of where they lived. If a school is failing their child ( and I don't mean giving their children F's I mean their child is not learning) then I think they should have every right to put them somewhere where they feel their tax dollars are being better spent. As for the poor people on welfare that are givin little tax credit for vouchers, well, I'm not sure how to get around that other than to say kids should not be punished for their parent's mis-doings. It's not a perfect system but there is a lot that could be done with planning and scrutiny. Letting every Tom, Dick and Harriet that can pass the C-BEST and take few courses to become a teacher is not helping any. We need some serious teacher guidelines (not made by unions) in this country and that is actually where money can best be spent.

[Fundamentalism]

Originally posted by Falconfire
actually BloodRayne I come from the age where bolding things wasnt possible thus caps wasnt ment to be screaming as it is now... bad habit I know.
You seem like a nice kid. Don't take me seriously until I tell you to, ok? Allways remember which board you're posting at. A lot of posters often seem to forget.

[guldulac]

I agree with your last sentence, if you mean that the process for becoming a teacher should be rigorous. That also requires compensation commensurate with training, something we don't currently do. I'd add that once in the class room, teachers should have greater freedom to taylor curriculum to meet the needs of the particular class. Too many resources are wasted prepping kids for standardized tests, for example. Teachers are not given enough chance to actually teach.

I'm also glad you brought up transportation. It's one of the many reasons vouchers do not benefit the neediest kids.

[Laker_Girl]

Originally posted by Falconfire
OK counter point... it is pretty well known more people go to college than ever LG (mind that I call you that?) But why? most countries dont put nearly as high a emphasis to going to college that the US does, heck not nearly as high to high school yet we try to compair ourselves to them.

The fact is the reason so many fail out is not because they couldn't "hack it" its because they where never ment for it... but while programs like what I will be doing teach these children to have skills so they CAN enter the workplace and be productive members, more and more cut funding and funding re-allocation (like NCLB) kills my programs and thus forces a mentality of have to go to college that these kids really dont need...

I could name hundreds of millionares who never step foot into college... so why is it so important?

Likewise my HS churned out two major groups... Navy men (very big navy town, if it wasnt for my physicaL problems I would have been a midshipmen instead since we have congressional allowment as a distingished unit in NJROTC) and workers for Merk and GM (two major companies with plants in the city) colllege bound like me was there too, but my schoolsytem knew better than to expect EVERYONE to go.

I could go into a huge long post about whats wrong with our system and how we could REALLY change it for the better, unlike the polititans view, but thats for another time

Yes, you can call me LG ;).

Before Imperium chimes in here let me tell you now that I never completed college, it wasn't for me and I did go on to get certificates in two different trades. The world needs hairstylists and daycare providers, handymen and day laborers but I don't think that's where any emphasis should be put. I hate to sound like those are avenues of last resort but really, do you want to encourage your kids to grow up and be school janitors?

[Laker_Girl]

Originally posted by guldulac
I agree with your last sentence, if you mean that the process for becoming a teacher should be rigorous. That also requires compensation commensurate with training, something we don't currently do. I'd add that once in the class room, teachers should have greater freedom to taylor curriculum to meet the needs of the particular class. Too many resources are wasted prepping kids for standardized tests, for example. Teachers are not given enough chance to actually teach.

I'm also glad you brought up transportation. It's one of the many reasons vouchers do not benefit the neediest kids.

I totally agree with absolutely everything you just said.

In my opnion, and this is JUST my opinion, there are a good amount of teachers today that are way OVER paid for the work they're doing. It seems like a lot of students unable to get positions in their chosen field turn to teaching. Teaching isn't at all what these people really want to do but it's 40k a year with summers off and sadly the kid's reflect that attitude.

[Falconfire]

good call guldulac one problem is treching is actually a hidiously hard proffesion to get into... You first off need to take many more credits than even a pre med student needs (132 vrs. 120) Also untill your tenured you take about 100 credit hours of education after school which must be approved by your admin and all of which is paid out of pocket by the teacher uless they are in a loving schoolsystem that payes to have in class training (basically half days and days off for students usually arnt for teachers who while still AT school arnt getting paid for training)

Likewise curriculum is more the decision of the school system based on the federal and state guidelines so sometimes you can have a lot of control (no state guidelines for Tech Ed in NJ and no federal standard) or sometimes it has to be VERY ridged... usually in your basics.

I agree teachers are not given enough chances to teach, even the schoolday is made in such a way that the maximum students at any one time are in any one class so that everyone can learn, usually at the expense of time in class. Smaller school classes would solve that, but we dont have enough teachers and have even less in the pipelines because its such a underpayed and hated job by people who dont really know what teaching is all about.. NJ alone has a huge shortage with the babybomers on their way out... In the next year over 3/4 of the school will openings, but while my specialization alone has 325 opening there are only 40 of us graduating across the state with none expected after that since 2 of the 3 schools canciled our program for lack of funding

[Falconfire]

actually starting slary is 30k with it topping out at 60k (my parents both 30+ year teachers)... hardly overpaid.. with my training I could get a 100 plus job easy.. my advisor makes 1 mill a year as a maker of high end furnature...

you are sorely mistaken its overpaid

[Laker_Girl]

^I wasn't talking about those dedicated to teaching, I was talking about 22 year olds fresh out of college that can get a position with the DA's office.

New teachers salary around here starts at around 38k and tops at around 70 to 75k and more if you have a Masters or PhD.

[Falconfire]

likewise its summers of NO PAY, my parents had to work every summer to make enough money to support us untill they finally where making 50k a year...

also summers is usually when people have to get their last hours of training so your also paying out of pocket for that.

LG you really dont know what goes into being a teacher so please dont think you do, you upset me as much as most polititians do when they talk about education

(no offence to you mind you)

[Falconfire]

but still is 75k a year overpayed? most top saleries are 100 plus in most job areas aside from working at a resturant... heck I could right now go to Macaronni Grill fill out a fourm become a manager and get paid 60k outright AND get on the job training! and thats how much my parernts make a year now, with 33 and 35 years under their belt

[Laker_Girl]

^You're taking what I said so far out of context it's not even funny and please don't assume I don't know anything about teachers or what they're subjected to. My best friend is a teacher as were her parents and each retired making well over 100k a year with full benefits and summers paid. I know that private school teachers make anywhere from 10 to 20k LESS than public school teachers and I'm real sorry your parents were so underpaid but that isn't how it is here.

Other than that and ONCE AGAIN I'm talking about people that aren't dedicated to teaching but do it for the paycheck or to pass time. Forty g's a year ain't bad if you're not doin' much.

[Falconfire]

well its aint bad for any job, but if they could make it through the utter hell I am going through just to pass time... I should bow before them cause it had not been easy to become a teacher for me in NJ.

And yes private schools DO pay less to teachers, but I am shocked at 100k??? thats like our Super's salary around here.. no teacher in our employment makes that, not sure about my dads school though, since he teachers in a much more afluent area, but he has a masters and makes actually less than my mom so Im sure they dont either...

[Laker_Girl]

Well, in truth her mother finished out her educational career as a librarian with a masters in library science and her father finished out his career as a counselor in the specialized field of advanced testing and placement. He also has a PhD in psychology and is a part time professor and author. BUT, teachers finish out their careers pretty high up there.

[Falconfire]

well i know NJ has some of the lowest pay for teachers, we had recruters from Las Vegas paying us 2 times starting here in pay and transportation costs. But the saying around here is didnt get into teaching to be rich.

Honestly if I wanted to be rich I'd have kept either my job at Apple, or gol work for my advisor!

[Laker_Girl]

And if more teachers had your attitude today's youth would be better off.

Yeah, Las Vegas is one of the fastest growing areas in the country, I bet they need teachers like a man in the desert needs a drink of water.

[Falconfire]

yesh they got two of our grads... they love it over there, I honestly couldnt see moving my entire life just to teach for more money.... the nice thing about where I am working (and hope to be teacher) is that I grew up in the system and know the kids and there problems. Its a very tight group for a "urban area" We all know each other and everyone helps out everyone else aside from a few bad seed teachers who like to cause trouble for their own benifit

[Laker_Girl]

Everyone thinks Las Vegas is just the strip but I have family in Northern Las Vegas and it's just gorgeous there. A nice quiet community. However, there are advantages to staying within the community you grew up in. My brother is working on his credential and he too would like to teach at the high school we went to. It's comfortable and a good way to give back.

[Falconfire]

exactly... so I guess we are just going to have to agree to dissagree on some of our other points then :lol: